Un poco de discusion sobre el valor de la eduacion y peleas variasmi comentario esta al final eso si :D
Allen Schwartz The money you make with your education over you lifetime will more than make up for the loss. try getting an education in a socialist society.- Allen Schwartz Remember that Socialism is a lazy mans paradise and for someone who works as hard as you do don't you think anything worth having is worth paying and working for.
Iván Eduardo WesterholtCapitalism is rich people paradise. They make money out of everything.
You got cancer? Pay. No money? Die
You want to study? Pay. No money? Stay poor forever.
You want to eat? Pay. No money? Starve.
I would be ok if the bank earned, you know, 3 ...M or 5M. It's their bussiness. But 14M seems to me like profiting with people's dreams.
And since I'm poor, I don't have any other options (I can't pay without the loan) they profit as much as they can.
- Iván Eduardo Westerholt Here in Chile, there is people who can barely afford food. How in this world are they going to be elegible for a bank loan? They have to stay poor forever, it doesn't matter how hard they work. So please, don't tell me capitalism is so good, until you see all the facts, and not just your country. The world is a lot larger.
- Allen Schwartz think long and hard from a capitalist point of view why they are poor. what social programs keep them down. seriously. i've looked at the poor in my own country and pinpoint the exact point in time when the poor because poorer. it'll be the same in your country. freedom of choice is the only way a man can bring himself up in the world.
- Iván Eduardo Westerholt Ok. Go tell african kids, who live with less than one dollar a day, that it's ok, they can have a brilliand idea like Bill Gate's and become millionaire. Guess what, they don't even know what a computer is. Their only choice is wether to spend their dollar in food or water.
- Iván Eduardo Westerholt That is the sickest thing I've ever heard: They are poor because they want. They don't make anything of themselves.
Pablo Valenzuela People who don't have money to eat don't need to be eligible for a loan, they need to work hard during their schooltime and get good grades and if they do so, they're gonna get a scholarship and study for free without ever having to pay what was given to them. THAT'S HERE IN YOUR COUNTRY TOO.
- Allen Schwartz in those poor countries who regulates the money supplies and freedoms of the people. the socialized government.
- Iván Eduardo Westerholt Whatever Pablo. I'm sure you can focus on your math test while you are thinking that you probably won't have anything to have dinner at your home.
- Pablo Valenzuela People who don't have money to eat are provided with food at their schools by our government. Our government that makes money by means of capitalism. THAT HERE IN YOUR COUNTRY TOO.
- Iván Eduardo WesterholtI don't know if socialism is the best option. Unfortunately there is no other option to capitalism. But answer me this, Pablo. If the Chilean government were profiting of our copper, there would be education for everyone.
Why does a British ...have to come to pick up our copper, that should belong to the chilean people, because we are all humans and owners of his lands?
Would the US or UK be ok if chilean enterprises went up there to pick up their natural resources?
- Iván Eduardo Westerholt Spanish are profiting from our water, american, from our forests, british, from our copper. WHY? Aren't those resources property of the chilean people?
- Pablo ValenzuelaThey are. They actually are the property of Chileans people, but in every democratic system there some kind of political organization and it's those orgaqnizations that make the decisions. We indirectly decide when we vote. It's called a re ...presentative system.If it were in the hands of the people to make every decisions then we would be living in an anarchy and not everybody knows how to handle business. It is not my attempt to be rude to you, but apparently you don't know how. Now the other part. Why isn't our government exploiting our natural resources? Simple because we can't. We don't have the know-how required to do so. Therefore, in the meantime, it is more convenient for our country to get indirect profits from our resources to add up to the total revenue.
- Iván Eduardo WesterholtCODELCO seems to me like they are doing a terrific job. They own only the 30% of the copper industry, and pay 200 million dollar to the Chilean government in taxes. The rest of the industry (70%) don't even reach the 100 million dollar. Wha ...t does that tell you?
And the response to your statement "Poor people only need to study"
Free education sucks. I go to a free school and had to go to Cpech, expensive as hell, to get a good PSU score.
And even if they got food from the schools, what about their parents? Don't you think those kids are going to be ok knowing that they get food but their parents don't?Ver más
- Iván Eduardo WesterholtAnd to Allen... there is no socialism in Africa. Whoever told you that, lied to you. If there were socialism, health care would be for free, like in Cuba, and food would be guaranteed, like in North Corea or in Venezuela.
It's the free marke ...ts. 17 million people die a year because they can't afford health care. It is sick that we allow that, while some people are so disgustingly rich.Ver más
- Iván Eduardo Westerholt Oh, I'm too afraid. When chilean people voted for socialism, the militars came back and killed and tortured and violated the human rights.
But you know, all of those things are ok, as long as we can have free markets (...)
- Pablo Valenzuela Iván, even kids from private schools have to go to Cpech to get high scores. And don't try too hard looking for arguments to back up your statements. Your are no longer being convincing because your statements now are too far-fetched. Don't try to split hairs ;)
- Iván Eduardo Westerholt It's ok Pablo. I don't worry about other people anymore. I will let God do that job.
- Isabel Salas its not okay when you dont have the freedom to express or think what you want or when you dont get a job because you dont support the goverment
- Iván Eduardo WesterholtI agree with you. Like I said, I don't know plenty about socialism, maybe it's not the best option.
But I'm pretty sure a system that has 1.000.000.000 people don't have clean water in the world, while Sebastian Piñera, my president, would ...have to live like a thousand years to spend all his money.
I think when he goes to purgatory, God will tell him "Why didn't you take your money from the bank, which you were not using, and gave food to people?"Ver más
- Pablo Valenzuela You know what Iván? Your responses are so biased, misinformed and rancorous that I don't even wanna continue with this. I hope we have the chance to have a face-to-face conversation in Pirque.
- Iván Eduardo Westerholt Every decent human being would do that. Even the catholic church, that helds in the vatican palace wealth enough to end up two times with the world's poverty.
Oh, right, they are not decent people.
- Iván Eduardo Westerholt Ok. Just answer this question, Pablo.
Would you give it up? If you had so much money that you couldn't even spend it in your lifetime, or if you had so much wealth, enought to end up with world's poverty.... would you give it up?
- Pablo Valenzuela I don't know. I would have to be in that situation but I probably wouldn't give ti all
- Iván Eduardo WesterholtYo sí. Me vas a tratar de mentiroso. Pero mientras pueda pagar el cable, el agua, la luz, la internet.. y ojalá el pack premium HBO (xd) educación para mi familia si es que tengo, comidas ricas, y una casa bonita... daría todo lo demás.
Eso ...es el capitalismo: avaricia. No importa que esté en el banco. No importa que no la vayas a usar. Just keep it all for you, the more, the better.Ver más
- Pablo Valenzuela Y tus nietos? and so on? Por eso te digo que me da lata seguir acá, epro tal vez podamos conversarlo en persona, jajaja
Paula Neira PiñaSabes Iván, con todo el respeto del mundo y para allen y pablo tambien, existen grandes diferencias entre el comunismo, capitalismo y socialismo, en este momento ivan vivimos en Chile una mezcla entre socialismo y capitalismo, tambien el so ...cialismo tiene sus bases en el comunismo, por lo tanto, el hecho de que en gobiernos como el de venezuela y argentina puedan tener educacion superior gratuita es netamente porque la combinacion que ellos eligieron entre comunismo y socialismo lo permite, por otra parte en Chile se me ocurre por ejemplo que si nosotros no tuvieramos esa mezcla entre socialismo (derivado del comunismo) y capitalismo, probablemente yo y otras muchas personas (como pablo tambien creo) no podriamos estudiar con becas, porque las becas son propias del sistema comunista, ademas en Chile existen las oportunidades para obtener todo tipo de beneficios para ayudar a mejorar la calidad de vida, sino gente como yo no podria estudiar, tengo un ingreso percapita de US$14 mensuales, aunque es cierto que la gente de pobreza extrema tiende a tener mayores problemas para estudiar y asi superar el circulo de la pobreza, como se explica que este año recien pasado se hayan perdido no se cuantas becas para dar la PSU, si el tema aca va mucho mas alla del dinero, pasa por un tema de cultura y sociedad Chilena, nosotros somos un pais muy joven en materia de desarrollo y superacion, pero hemos tenido grandes logros, si cada uno de los niños de cada colegio sin importar si es publico o privado entendiera la importancia de preocuparse por su educacion entonces las cosas serian distintas, una de las grandes reflexiones que conclui en estados unidos es que la diferencia en temas de educacion entre ellos y nosotros, independiente de la calidad de la educacion es que ellos desde que nacen sus papas les inculcan que la unica manera de surgir en la vida es estudiar y tener un titulo universitario (o por lo menos de college) y eso hace a la gente de ese pais tremendamente competitiva, por eso en estados unidos en un curso normal encuentras que la mayoria de la gente tiene buenas notas y son los menos lo que tienen malas notas, en cambio en Chile y sobretodo en colegios publicos de la gente mas pobre, encuentras mayoria de malas notas, nosotros que somos las generaciones del futuro no podemos seguir con esa mentalidad, tenemos que inculcar en nuestros hijos la importancia de el estudio, y como otro punto, el sistema que viven en cuba no es un socialismo, osea ellos dicen que eso es pero no lo es, eso es comunismo, comunismo es cuando el estado decide que pasa en tu vida y deja que todos sean iguales y con las mismas oportunidades (y encuentro razon a allen en el sentido de que el comunismo, no el socialismo, es el paraiso de los flojos) tambien el comunismo elimina la propiedad privada, por eso en cuba todos tienen lo que necesitan pero a un alto costo, su libertad, que es el bien mas preciado que podamos tener los seres humanos, bien que en nuestro pais se perdio durante algun tiempo, por gente que creyo que estaba en lo correcto, pero que despues todo se les salio de las manos, el tema de la pobreza de africa es complicado y sobretodo desde el punto de vista politico-economico, africa fue mucho tiempo colonia de Inglaterra y otros paises que lo dominabas politica administrativa y economicamente, una vez finalizadas las guerras mundiales las colonias fueron liberadas y los africanos debieron asumir tu autonomia politica economica administrativa, etc. como ellos no sabian como gobernarse pasaron por un periodo muy complicado de anarquia , esto fue perjudicial para ellos porque como nunca pudieron ponerse de acuerdo los blancos que viven en africa se tomaron el oder porque ellos si sabian como gobernar, entonces ellos manejan las riquezas de ese continente (como el diamante) a destajo y no se preocupan por el bienestar de la gente. Bueno creo que respondi todo lo que comentaron, ah y como un plus xD yo vivo con casi US$ 2 diarios (921 pesos), puta que estoy pobre xD
